Live From Destinations International: Improving Travel Accessibility

Intro: Recorded live from the Destinations International Convention in Tampa, Florida: welcome to Brand USA Talks Travel. This year's Destinations International Annual Convention promises to ignite your passion and fuel your growth. And we'll plug you into all the visionary leaders making that possible. Now here's your host, Mark Lapidus. 

Mark Lapidus [0:20]: I'd like to begin by addressing the elephant in the room. I understand, Sophia - a spy has told me - that when you were a little kid, you actually walked to school with elephants. Is that true? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [0:31]: That is true. That is absolutely true. I was ten years old, living in Sri Lanka, and when we were going to school, we used to have elephants that would walk along with us. And so, what was great about that, it was a new experience for me, moving from California to Sri Lanka and having that experience. But I really wanted an elephant when I was ten, and I still do now. 

Mark Lapidus [0:54]: It's gonna be a little more difficult for me to top that question with you, but I'm gonna try. Okay, so what is your official stance on the Loch Ness monster? 

Rory Archibald [1:02]: She is completely and utterly real. She's vital for Scottish tourism, so anybody who says she isn't real is completely and utterly wrong. I will say, though, that's not the most bizarre animal that we have. The national animal of Scotland is the unicorn. So I walked to school with both the Loch Ness monster and a unicorn. 

Mark Lapidus [1:21]: Well, we're going to have fun today. My guests on this episode are Rory Archibald, Head of Association Sectors and Marketing at Visit Scotland, and Sophia Hyder Hock, Chief Inclusion Officer at Destinations International. You're both part of a session here at the convention titled "Embracing Accessible and Inclusive Tourism," so give me some highlights. Rory, you want to start? 

Rory Archibald [1:40]: Yeah, sure. We joined that panel to share what Visit Scotland are doing for accessibility and inclusive tourism. But I really wanted to go into that session to say that we're not perfect and we don't know everything. And me personally, I am not an expert. And coming to sessions like that, coming to events like Destination International, is an opportunity for us to all learn from our successes, because Tampa gave an incredible presentation about what they're doing in this city, but also learning from the mistakes that we're making. And I think that's where we grow the most as a society. So I shared some of the things that Scotland do, the organizations that we work with when we don't know the answers, some of the successes from other destinations around the world and how those successes are still being followed today. They've had impact and they're changing people's lives. I finished off with my very grandiose statement at the very end that when it comes to tourism and events, that the most important person is not the visitor, it's actually the resident. And so if we create accessible, inclusive tourism, that absolutely benefits the people of Scotland or the people from any community around the world. 

Mark Lapidus [2:44]: You certainly get more assistance that way, too, right? If you include everybody. 

Rory Archibald [2:48]: Absolutely, absolutely. 

Mark Lapidus [2:49]: Sophia, what were the highlights for you? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [2:50]: In this session that we had, we also shared some findings from a global study that we launched with CityDNA. 

Mark Lapidus [2:58]: Ooh, let's hear about that. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [2:59]: Yeah, really interesting insight. So again, really looking at North America, inclusive of Canada, United States, as well as Latin America, Mexico, Europe. And what we did was, the study was meant to gather data that doesn't exist yet. So I want to backtrack a little bit to say that the study was very intentional with trying to understand what global accessibility looks like. What are the gaps, what are the challenges, and what does funding look like with respect to accessibility? And some interesting findings: we have, I think, over 50% of our respondents have taken an assessment with respect to accessibility. Training is taking place; at the same time, we also see that some of our destinations from the survey don't know how to get started. It's very mixed, it's very 50/50 because there's not just one disability. There are so many types. 

Mark Lapidus [3:51]: Right. How big was the survey? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [3:52]: We had over 150 destinations on a global scale take this survey. What we want to do at the same time is pull from some of these really great lessons learned that are captured in the survey, to be able to share that out. But then our next step that we shared in this session was to be able to do a better job with professional development, have more discussions about seen and unseen abilities and also the built environment. 

Mark Lapidus [4:18]: So while we're on the topic, could you share a few more results of the survey? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [4:21]: Absolutely. So the interesting thing about funding is that it's not consistent in the United States and in Europe. And our destination organizations aren't relying on funding from the government to launch accessibility aligned initiatives. It's very much either a passion project or it's very fundamental to the destination organization to create a more accessible environment. 

Mark Lapidus [4:46]: Well, that's problematic, because passion projects come and go, right? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [4:49]: That's true. And so what we're looking at is, again, looking at systemic barriers, and what can we do to support our destination organizations to understand that accessibility is critical for visitors? But most importantly, to Rory's point, for the residents. 

Mark Lapidus [5:05]: One of the nice things about having folks here in an international convention, Rory, is that us, as Americans, get to see how other countries are doing it. We also can learn from you in terms of how you view us. You know, you're here, you're seeing what we do. What do you think that America does right, and what could we work on? 

Rory Archibald [5:22]: From a European perspective, when we look across the pond, when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion in general, there's a lot of learnings that we can take, and a lot of what social inclusion encompasses, which is so much. So much is actually tackled head-on within the United States, whereas we're slightly more tentative about being blunt, being frank about some of the problems that exist. 

Mark Lapidus [5:45]: So that's the American personality - being blunt. 

Rory Archibald [5:49]: The stereotype is that the Scottish people, we don't talk about how good we are at certain things. So I think we're a little bit sometimes polar opposites on that side. I do see a lot of things when I go to attractions, some of the public transport in some of the cities have really thought through the visitor journey, the resident journey. And from Scotland, we do have major problems. The city of Edinburgh is 900 years old this year, and we have castles that go back to the 1100s. You can't alter the fabric of some of these historic buildings, so we need to think about getting creatively in how we ensure that everybody gets to experience. So, for example, there are some attractions which are very historic, where, if there's access issues for upper levels, they create an augmented reality to ensure that you can see what's going on up there. The Royal Rock Britannia, the Queen's private yacht, for over 40 years, is in Edinburgh. And instead of navigating the yacht with the stairs that are there, they've created the bridges, just like you would board a cruise ship, but for every single level and put an elevator outside. So I'm trying to remember my American, because we call it a lift- 

Mark Lapidus [6:53]: Elevator. 

Rory Archibald [6:53]: -the elevator outside to ensure that everybody can access every single floor and every part of that ship. Now, that doesn't happen everywhere, but these are some really good examples of how we're trying our very best, and I see some of those examples, of course, within the United States. 

Mark Lapidus [7:09]: I'm going to take a potshot at the British. My wife and I were in London, I guess probably six months ago, and we were trying to manhandle our luggage through the Tube, and there are stops there that do not have any kind of accessibility, just stairs - no escalators, no elevators. And I kept thinking, like, if you're in a wheelchair, how do you handle this? It's impossible. 

Rory Archibald [7:29]: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the Tube has signs on which stations are accessible, but that's not really handy if you're wanting to go to the station that is not accessible. If you look at the Elizabeth line, which just opened up, I think, a couple of years ago, and it's a beautiful line, but they've thought that through there, as then how do you then retrofit these tube stations which are the oldest in the world? And it's a huge infrastructure challenge of which we don't have the answer for yet. 

Mark Lapidus [7:55]: So back to my initial question, though. How do you think we're doing as opposed to the rest of the world? I mean, I know you have this specific view of Scotland, but I'm sure you've seen other things in Europe. 

Rory Archibald [8:04]: If I just take this broadly, just how the world is doing, we need to do more, and we're not pushing accessibility and inclusivity enough. I think when we talk about diversity, equity, inclusion back home, we kind of focus on gender equality, sexuality, ethnicity. And the accessibility element for people who have disabilities is the bit that's not talked about often enough. We are creating accessibility guides, we're working with partners to help create strategies to make things better. But I believe the world is behind the times and there's a lot of catching up to do, because we have focused, quite rightly, on other issues. But we need to find a way to focus on all the issues. Mark Lapidus [8:46]: A lot of people don't realize that you can't always see accessibility issues. So, for example, I have a nephew that is on the autism spectrum. And if you were to just look at him or see him from a distance or whatever, you wouldn't particularly notice anything until you began speaking with him. And so when he's traveling, and he does it by himself, he has a lot of different challenges. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [9:07]: Absolutely. And that's one of the things that we are trying to help normalize or maybe sensitize a little more. The empathy element is really critical. And talking about seen and unseen abilities is the other piece. Because I guarantee you here, we have almost 2,000 people here at our conference, and I guarantee you we have a lot of unseen disabilities. People just don't talk about it. And I think the first piece of this is creating awareness about normalizing the fact that this is a part of who we are as humans. 

Mark Lapidus [9:37]: Sophia, what do you think the actual responsibility of a destination is when it comes to accessible tourism? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [9:43]: I think authenticity is really important. I think awareness is really important. I think it's really important for, first, a destination organization to understand the importance as well. So I think the responsibility is, one, understanding that accessibility is critical. I think the second is understanding what the environment looks like in that destination. And I think the third is being able to be very realistic about how to communicate what is in your destination from an accessibility lens. 

Mark Lapidus [10:15]: Can it be done without having a Chief Inclusivity Diversity Officer or person at the DMO? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [10:21]: Well, I have to say that Destinations International, as the association for destination organizations, we're here for you. Our resources are here to support small, medium and large destination organizations, especially those that are small or medium, may not have someone that is a Chief Inclusion Officer, and that's why we're there for you. But it's also the job of everyone in the destination organization to have that empathy and to be able to work on accessibility related and, quite honestly, inclusion-related initiatives together. 

Mark Lapidus [10:53]: So we started the conversation talking about accessibility studies. How are those typically conducted, and once they're done, how are they utilized? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [11:01]: So I can give you a two-part answer to that. One is that with Destinations International, we have a social impact assessment tool that's for our destination organizations, just to understand where they're at with respect to inclusion. We have a section within our assessment tool for accessibility. And what's really interesting from the findings we have this year is that the accessibility section is by far an area where our destinations have the most challenges. They don't know how to get started, where to get started. Then that's where the assessment piece comes in. And there are different organizations, accessibility specialists, that can help assess the destination organization based on the different abilities. There's an organization called TravelAbility who can help with offering advice on different assessments. There's Wheel The World, there's Sage Inclusion. There are a few out there. 

Mark Lapidus [11:53]: We've had a number of them on the podcast, by the way, so people can search for them and they'll find episodes. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [11:58]: Perfect. And they all have assessments from different viewpoints of different disabilities. 

Mark Lapidus [12:03]: Rory, how did Visit Scotland get started? 

Rory Archibald [12:05]: You know, that's a question I don't know. We've been doing this for quite a number of years. We have a DEI specialist within our organization that leads on a lot of our initiatives. We're getting better at it, on how we educate, train and bring awareness to our own teams, because we can't go out as a destination to advise others or to even market without trying to understand. So we've been a member of Business Disability Forum for six years now. So I'd probably say we've taken this seriously for the last six years. They are an organization that have 560 members around the world that represents 3 million people. 60% of their workforce have a disability. So we know that we are speaking to people that have lived experiences. And they advise on hidden and apparent disability, mental health, wellbeing, anxiety. So we work with them on training resources for our teams, how we operate as an organization, how we recruit, and then that helps create that snowball effect of, then, how did that go into other parts of our business? And just like many of the destinations in the United States, we work with a lot of organizations that are specialized in these areas to help with creating marketing strategies, accessibility strategies, not just for Visit Scotland, but for our cities and our regions. And there's an organization called Euan's Guide, which created a number of years ago. Euan is Scottish, based in Scotland, a wheelchair user, and if you want to be accredited or be mentioned in his guide, his team will come and experience either your attraction, your hotel, as a person with disabilities, and that could be a wide variety, and then you get access there. So we work with them. I believe they work around the world, it's not just in Scotland. So, yeah, I think probably the last six years we've been taking this seriously, but this is still a learning curve for us, and there's still mistakes that we will probably have to learn from, but we just have to be brave and acknowledge them. And that's why we come to events like this. That's why we want to speak to organizations like Brand USA, like Tampa, so we can share what's happening. 

Mark Lapidus [14:01]: Who are the natural partners for DMOs to work with in their local locations? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [14:06]: I think it's important to look at who's in the local community. So those that have disabilities in the community, those are the natural partners because they're living and breathing this work every day. That's the perfect place to start in the community. 

Mark Lapidus [14:19]: Can either of you recommend books, movies, articles, websites that you've seen that would help people get started? 

Rory Archibald [14:25]: Yes. I mentioned this in my session, I've actually got the book with me. I was reading it on the plane for the second time. It is Demystifying Disability by Emily Ladau. I met her two years ago in Toronto. She was given a presentation on accessible tourism, and the way she puts it across is very easy to understand. It's actually a fun book to read. It has things like language to help with the correct terminologies, and also sharing some of the good experiences and the bad experiences. And even when she went to Toronto, I think she was flying from Washington DC to JFK to Toronto. She's an electric wheelchair user, and she had to go back from JFK, back to Washington and get another flight, because the plane that was taking her from New York to Toronto, the cargo hold door was too small for the electric wheelchair. And even though that had been notified to the airline, who will remain anonymous, nothing was checked. So although she registered for the assistance that was required, all the protocols were done by the airline's requirements. It still completely ruined her day and made her a day late for the conference. And, you know, I don't have a disability. These are parts that we need to understand on that journey. So that book is phenomenal. Sorry, I went off on a massive tangent there. 

Mark Lapidus [15:36]: What do you recommend? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [15:37]: So, from the DI lens, I can say there are two things. Maybe they're a little nerdy, but- 

Mark Lapidus [15:41]: It's okay, we like nerdy. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [15:43]: DI and TravelAbility have a partnership that we forged, because we did notice there was a huge gap with respect to accessibility. So this week, actually at AC, we're launching the TravelAbility & DI Accessibility Playbook, which helps destination organizations of all sizes get started thinking about their digital accessibility needs. FAM trips, communication, because we noticed that there was a gap there, and we can't do it ourselves. We need a partner that knows how it's done. And so we've partnered with TravelAbility to do that. So that toolkit is available this week. The second I can say, also from the nerdy end, is that we're gonna look at the findings from the global study with CityDNA and draft a report to be more transparent about the world as it is today. From an accessibility lens, we want to humanize this world. We're going to look at best practices, lessons learned, and then talk about what is it that we need to do next to delve deeper with respect to seen and unseen abilities. 

Mark Lapidus [16:38]: Aside from this specific conference, are there other travel conferences that you would recommend for people that want to learn more about the subject? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [16:45]: Yes. So, Jake Steinman- 

Mark Lapidus [16:47]: Hello, Jake! Yeah, we all know Jake. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [16:50]: -in November, he has his conference all about different seen and unseen abilities. It's phenomenal. I think last year he had over 300 people at that conference. And I would recommend that conference specifically, because it really showcases a variety of different businesses and entrepreneurs that have businesses to help people with different abilities. 

Mark Lapidus [17:10]: So I understand that people often get stuck getting started. That's a real touch point for people. They begin, and then they just don't know what to do first. So what do they do? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [17:19]: I think empathy is really key, and I think about people with different disabilities. I feel like if you want to experience how a wheelchair user goes throughout their day, try to get in a wheelchair and go about your day in a wheelchair to see how hard it is to go on the sidewalk in a curb cut. So I think empathy is key, and trying to step into the other individual's shoes to understand what it's like. I think that is really powerful. I think the second is being able to assess your destination realistically. 

Mark Lapidus [17:55]: Right. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [17:55]: Realistically, that is also key, because there's a lot of information that is not on a website. And when I talk to travelers with disabilities, the first thing they do is they want to know if they're going to feel safe and secure in the destination. So being able to one, assess your destination and provide the information on the website is a really great way to get started. And to be honest, is the other key. So if something is not accessible, say that, because then that traveler will know. 

Mark Lapidus [18:24]: Should destinations all have accessibility information on their websites? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [18:28]: Absolutely, 100%. 

Rory Archibald [18:29]: I absolutely agree with that, because the surveys and data that Visit Scotland has, if you don't have accessibility information on your website, then the majority of people will assume that there's nothing accessible about your destination. 

Mark Lapidus [18:41]: And frankly, where else are they going to find it? I mean, if it's not a destination website, who else is putting this information out? 

Sophia Hyder Hock [18:47]: Not many. I would say influencers. But you're doing a search and you could get lost. So the first place is really the destination's website. 

Mark Lapidus [18:55]: And this is actually good for business. It generates more tourism, because you have a variety of people coming. It tells people where they can go. It helps in all forms of travel. So I don't know why more destinations aren't doing it. I know there's an expense involved with it, so I guess that's the barrier. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [19:10]: I think so, but I think it's also not realizing that you have community members that you can rely upon and use in marketing and in imagery, and to ask for advice, and to use those services first, in-house or in the community. And that also authenticates what you're able to market online and that will attract visitors. So I think sometimes we forget that we have a lot of resources in our community and we just haven't reached out to them yet. 

Mark Lapidus [19:37]: Well, you both danced about this a little bit, but it's okay to make mistakes. 

Rory Archibald [19:41]: Oh, yes. I think mistakes is where we learn from the absolute most. And if you look back in history and the mistakes of humans in general, we make the biggest progress that we ever do. You know, human rights laws came in effect after two world wars, you know, two horrible experiences, but that has now been implemented into almost every nation on the planet. You know, you mentioned it was good for business. It's good for business, but it's something that we have to do. We have overtourism problems across Europe, and Scotland is not separate from that. And if we change this narrative on looking after the visitor to looking after the resident, if we are putting strategies in place, we're making our visitors know and hear about our accessibility, our inclusiveness that can only benefit the resident and change that narrative that this is not just good for business, this is good for our society. 

Mark Lapidus [20:32]: I want to wish you both continued success in your endeavors in this area. I'm thrilled to hear what you're doing, and the future looks bright for the development of this particular area. 

Sophia Hyder Hock [20:40]: Thank you. 

Rory Archibald [20:41]: Thank you very much. 

Mark Lapidus [20:42]: And that's Brand USA Talks Travel, live from Destinations International in Tampa, Florida. More episodes to follow. I'm Mark Lapidus, thanks for listening. 

Outro [20:50]: If you enjoyed this Live From Destinations International episode, please share it with your friends in the travel industry. Production and music by Asher Meerovich. Media producer, Nthanze Kariuki, with assistance from Casey D'Ambra. Engineering, Brian Watkins, Kat Pommer, and Antonio Tyler. Art by Mimi Jung. Special thanks to Alexis Adelson, Phil Dickerson, Peter Dodge, and Colleen Mangone. More Live From Destinations International episodes coming soon. Safe travels!

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