
Seth Orozco and Nick Hall serve up highlights from an extensive research project that will get you up to speed on developments in destination marketing. Their organizations work with hundreds of global destinations to reach consumers who are ready to travel. This new report is 48 pages of valuable research that you can download for free at https://www.sojern.com/reports/state-of-destination-marketing. Nick Hall is Founder/CEO of the Digital Tourism Think Tank in the U.K. Seth Orozco is Sales Director at Sojern.
"We can see that AI really, really has very, very quickly come on the scene, and it's really dictating and changing how destinations think about content and the overall work of the kind of creative desk that sits within the DMO."
[:01] - Intro: This is Brand USA Talks Travel, elevating the conversation about international travel to the United States. Here's your host, Mark Lapidus.
[:09] - Mark Lapidus: Nick, we've already established that your happiness manager is a dog named Marmaduke. True?
[:14] - Nick Hall: That is very true, and he's still keeping everybody happy.
[:18] - Mark Lapidus:So what I want to know is whether or not - when you did that talk last week in Cheshire, England - whether or not you took him with you. Was he on the trip?
[:25] - Nick Hall: He wasn't, unfortunately. I think this is something the tourism industry needs to learn, that the dog owner market is huge, and you really want to keep them happy. Unfortunately, in this case, it didn't work out well.
[:37] - Mark Lapidus: I figured it was a perfect match because of the Cheshire cat, you know, which has got to make that DMO very happy that they have this literary character to play with, right?
[:45] - Nick Hall: Maybe that's actually why they said no.
[:48] - Mark Lapidus: It could be. Seth, do you have any pets?
[:50] - Seth Orozco: I do, one staring at me right now. I've got a dog named Rosie. She's my office mate. I like to call her my assistant, but she doesn't do a lot of work.
[:58] - Mark Lapidus: That's so cute. And we could certainly use more pets in photography, and also in video and travel stuff. Seth, maybe you could do some research about whether or not pets attract more attention, I guess that they do. I'm so happy to welcome back Nick Hall, founder of the Digital Tourism Think Tank. And joining him today is Seth Orozco, Sales Director at Sojern. Welcome to Brand USA Talks Travel, gentlemen. Digital Think Tank and Sojern joined forces to release the Sojern State of Destination Marketing 2024 Report, which we will get to in just a moment - but first, I'd like each of you to give us a moment or two on your organization, in case my listeners don't really know what you do yet. So, Seth, why don't you go first; describe Sojern and what you do.
[1:36] - Seth Orozco: First off, thanks for having Sojern and myself on the podcast. Really looking forward to this. So Sojern, in a sentence: we are a platform company that uses data to serve digital media to the travel audience. So that's a super loaded sentence, so I'll kind of break it down from there. We're a digital marketing company that specializes in reaching travelers. Now, the reason we specialize in reaching travelers is because of our data partnerships. We get data partnerships, we get data directly from all travel companies. Think airlines, hotels, OTAs, meta search sites, cruise companies, car rental companies; you name it, and we have data partnerships within that area of travel. Now, what we do with that data is kind of what sets us apart. We receive what we call from them travel intent signals. And these are simply data points of people searching and booking online so we can understand exactly where they sit in their path to purchase. So let me give you a quick example. If I go online and search "flights to New York City," I hit enter. If that is a partner of Sojern's, we get all the data about that search, and we can understand exactly where I sit in my path to purchase.
[2:44] - Seth Orozco: So then the very next website that I go to, I can be impressed with an ad to influence where I go, where I stay, how I get there, and what I do when I'm there. So that's kind of Sojern in a nutshell is, we're just influencing. We understanding where people are searching and booking, and then influencing them to do something else in their path to purchase when it comes to travel. Me personally, I started Sojern in 2019 on the marketing team. Marketing has always been my background. And then about two years ago, I came over to the sales side and loved that. And now on my day to day, I manage destinations for the northeast for Sojern, and some of my clients include Destination DC, New York City Tourism Conventions, and then of course, Brand USA.
[3:26] - Mark Lapidus: Nick, tell us about the Digital Think Tank and how the two of you connected.
[3:30.080] - Nick Hall: Well, in short, Digital Tourism Think Tank works with destinations. We are really, really destination focused. We work with destinations all around the world, so we're truly a global platform. We work across North America, U.S., Canada, throughout the whole of Europe, and also Middle East and Asia as well. We are really, really focused on helping destinations understand best practices, trends, and this all comes together as part of a membership program where we have a lot of DMO members all over the world. Brand USA is one of them. We also do some really cool flagship events, which I can only say are unlike any other events in the industry. You yourself, Mark, have also spoken at one of those events.
[4:10] - Mark Lapidus: Guilty.
[4:11] - Nick Hall: So that's also what makes them exceptional. And we also do a lot of advisory and very creative workshopping around all of the big things that are happening right now, which of course is pretty much AI, but there are other things happening as well.
[4:24] - Mark Lapidus: So how did Digital Tourism Think Tank and Sojern join up for this study?
[4:27] - Nick Hall: We've worked with Sojern for many, many years. I actually think it spans more than ten years, so it's a really well-established partnership together with Sojern. And here, at the Digital Tourism Think Tank, we see ourselves as a thought leadership platform. We try to sit objectively in the middle of what's happening and help everybody to understand how to navigate those trends. And Sojern have always been with us on that journey; they've partnered with us, they've shared really great insights, they've revealed and helped us understand a lot of that data Seth mentioned there in various different formats. So when we came together to discuss this piece of research, it was really looking at, where are the gaps today in the post-Covid world? What are we trying to figure out? And we could see that there were some really monumental changes that the pandemic had brought. The industry had changed, the way we work had changed, the priorities, the focus. And so if we look at marketing, marketing in itself had been completely redefined. The motivations for travelers had shifted. The way in which we collaborate and create solutions to reach those travelers had changed. And then of course, you've got things like AI and data and then first party data becoming really, really big conversation pieces within the industry, but also really big challenges in terms of how we tackle that.
[5:40] - Nick Hall: And so we thought about what we can do to get a better understanding here. And we worked together on the State of Marketing as a piece of research. And principally, this was a piece of research designed to capture that shift in how DMOs are working. We pulled together insights from 300 different destinations, a really, really extensive survey that helped us get to the bottom of that. We ran that over a six-month period and we captured that understanding across both North America and Europe to get a really, really clear picture on how destinations on both sides of the pond were working with all the shifts and changes that we see in the marketing landscape today. And I think the result of that gives us a really, really clear snapshot of what's happening in marketing, and where perhaps some of our assumptions can be challenged, but also reveals really interesting insights.
[6:31] - Mark Lapidus: So let's get a little taste of that snapshot, Nick. What did you both find surprising in this report?
[6:36] - Nick Hall: Well, I'm not sure if I found this surprising, but it's certainly revealing. So we asked about where different trends were impacting tourism, and unsurprisingly, AI came out as one of the biggest shifts that we've seen today. And the vast majority of destinations said that it's really impacting the creativity and content generation elements. So we can see that AI really, really has very, very quickly come on the scene, and it's really dictating and changing how destinations think about content and the overall work of the kind of creative desk that sits within the DMO. I think the other is seeing just how dominant, now, digital is within destinations as a key driver of their activities. It's something that was always kind of separated as a separate team. So we used to think about marketing, and then the digital marketing team. The results of the survey showed that 64% of destinations really saw this as core to the overall marketing team. So I think this is really reflecting an overall organizational shift about where digital sits, and it really just embeds it right at the center of the organization's approach, which is obviously really positive to see.
[7:48] - Mark Lapidus: Seth, what jumped out at you?
[7:49] - Seth Orozco: I think the most surprising for me was around co-ops. If you read the study, the data clearly spells out that DMOs understand the reason for them. They had a need for them. But the majority of destinations feel that they either don't do them well or don't even have a program at all. And when you ask, if you look at the numbers, "Why don't you have a co-op program?" The three highest barriers, this is what they said: 51% said it was difficult coordinating programs and campaigns; 21% said it was unable to get private sector funding; and 16% for a lack of an awareness or know-how. So, as a marketer, we like to look at numbers, so let's flip those numbers a little bit and look at them. That means that 84% of DMOs know how to do it. That is not a barrier to entry. 79% are able to get private sector funding. So that's saying they know how to do it, they can get money for it, but yet the majority say they don't or they don't do it well. So the conclusion here is like programs are wanted, they're a needed solution for destinations across North America and Europe.
[8:46] - Seth Orozco: So this is a common thing. It doesn't matter where you're looking at or size of DMO, co-ops are important. They all have partners that they have to support, and yet they all find it difficult and underutilized. So as an industry, we really have to come together and find a solve for this. And my personal take on a DMO perspective is, lean on your vendors. The number one reason why DMO's don't do co-ops well, because they're difficult to coordinate and run campaigns, what does that translate to? They're saying that, "We don't have time and resources to execute campaigns and co-ops in this way." Which makes total sense; I mean, DMOs wear so many hats. Even if you just wear a digital marketing hat, that doesn't mean you're just in digital marketing. You're in all marketing. Or if you're a marketing hat, doesn't mean you're just in marketing. DMOs, they do so much, and I totally understand, but guess who does have the time and resources that can overcome that? It's the vendors. That's what we get paid to do. We're here to support their goals, and that's what they should lean more into, is "Let's get over this co op problem that we see.
[9:44] - Seth Orozco: We know there's a solution and how can we find it together."
[9:46] - Mark Lapidus: Nick, how many destinations do you work with?
[9:49] - Nick Hall: We work with hundreds of destinations. So we have those that are members, so we have around 100. And then we have thousands of destinations of every single size, so national, regional, city, state, provincial. It's really an interesting mix. And I think this is also what makes it quite unique. And we saw this also in the study, that you can really see differences between different kinds of destinations.
[10:11] - Mark Lapidus: That's what I'm driving at. So what I'm wondering, actually, it's tying back to what Seth was talking about here, is how many of these destinations actually have co-op programs, and how many of the destinations have somebody in charge of that area?
[10:22] - Nick Hall: Well, we see a huge dominance in the U.S. in particular to using co-op programs. I think this also relates to how the organizations are structured. There's more flexibility, there's more of a private sector driven-approach, and this gives them a lot more freedom to negotiate and establish commercial arrangements and partnerships. But I think, interestingly, we also saw that more and more DMOs in Europe are actively pursuing co-ops. Some of them have had to change legislative elements in order to allow them to do that. So it can be really, really complicated to make that shift, because sometimes the rules are at the very highest level in government, and they need to change the entire kind of modus operandi that the organization runs to be able to pursue commercial partnerships. So that can be really, really difficult. But nonetheless, a lot of destinations have started to recognize the importance of that and really shift their strategies, because it's also about fundraising, you know, so it's about being able to increase the reach, the impact of their budget, to be able to do more. And I think the other reason we see a shift - and this is something which really surprised me.
[11:25] - Nick Hall: And I have to say I thought I had the good picture and a good understanding. And I kind of realized from the research that sometimes, you know, you can conduct a piece of research like this, and it will really challenge your assumptions, because we saw that in Europe there's a significant number of destinations are pursuing co-ops. And also, they're doing this because they have to demonstrate the ROI all the way through to the booking value created from a particular campaign. And that is definitely not something that was the case seven, eight years ago, or even three to five years ago. So there's been a big shift there, and a huge pressure on destinations to demonstrate the impact that that investment, especially when it's coming from public sector funds, can actually make. So that's a big shift, something that I would say moves Europe more towards the U.S. approach to destination marketing.
[12:12] - Mark Lapidus: Seth, what else in the study was of interest to you?
[12:15] - Seth Orozco: I mean, a lot of it, to be honest. You know, on a day to day I work with DMOs to really construct their strategy of their digital marketing side of their campaign. And I love how it broke down. The study clearly came out, said social, SEM, and programmatic: those are the three top digital things that are really valued by all the DMOs across the world, which is great, because that's what I work on on a day to day basis. So it gives me kind of validity in that what I work on is actually what they value. And then we can see that through the results, and that's what's great about this side of digital marketing, is you can prove out what's actually happening. And those things that Nick just kind of talked to, of going back to the co-op thing of, it's sometimes set at a legislative level, which makes it difficult because you're intermingling private sector funding with public funding, and how do we accomplish goals for both sides? I love that it's very interested to DMOs, and this is something that we can build on and it's something that, Sojern, that we've really leaned into in the last three years, is this idea of co-ops, of how can we use this money to greater good, where rising tides lifts all ships?
[13:16] - Seth Orozco: And really buying into that philosophy is what came out of this study in general. I love that about the travel industry, and what really drew me to it is, I work in digital marketing, and if you're in digital marketing outside of travel, people don't like to share secrets. They don't like to share what they're doing behind closed doors. That is not the case in travel. And I just love that something like this, they're so open to this report. I've presented this report at multiple conferences and it becomes a discussion of like, what's important, which is the whole point of what we're doing. So that's what I definitely liked about everything that came out of it.
[13:48] - Mark Lapidus: I'm so glad that you brought it up, actually, because I'd love to hear your thoughts about the proper mix between programmatic search, social, and the rest.
[13:55] - Seth Orozco: By far, those are the most important channels from the study. I think it was 96, 95 and 88% said it was important or a large part of their digital plan. And that is exactly what I see in my day to day. To answer your question, the proper mix totally depends on who you are and what is your end goal. So each of these three channels are kind of a piece to the larger pie, and each slice needs to be sliced based on the actual goal that you're trying to accomplish with that campaign. So for destinations, I kind of view them as part of the marketing funnel. All three of these, right? At the top is social. Social allows you to get in front of people at the awareness stage in an engaging medium that they are seeking out themselves. And that becomes even more true the lower you get in age, so if you're a millennial, if you are below the age of 40, there's an 80% chance that you go online and search the destination on social before you actually go to it. So there is opportunity there to really influence people at the awareness stage.
[14:50] - Seth Orozco: And as you kind of make your way through that marketing funnel, if you're picturing it, like, programmatic can kind of be seen as that middle funnel strategy. We're reinforcing the brand that was discovered at the awareness phase across the Internet, no matter where they go. And then it allows you to impress people no matter where they are. And then at the bottom of the funnel is search. So this is where conversions happen and help push people from travel searchers to confirm travelers, which is the whole point in why we're doing this, right? So each of these products are at the level of the marketing funnel that, they're flexible. They should be viewed as a Venn diagram, and there isn't one thing that should be used every single time at the same part in the marketing funnel. You have to find the right mix. And I think that's what's great about the whole marketing journey that we're all on, is you come up with a plan, you get the data back that says, did it work? And then you readjust and you move forward.
[15:34] - Mark Lapidus: We've already established the fact that both of you work with hundreds of destinations, so I'm wondering if you could each give us a couple examples of DMOs that are using data in a particularly innovative or surprising way. Nick?
[15:44] - Nick Hall: So we see a lot of destinations pursuing really varying data strategies. It's a big priority for most destinations. I think one area where I would be critical, as an objective observer of destinations, would be that actually marketing data often sits outside of data strategies - which maybe sounds really, really strange and unusual, because it's something you would think would actually be established by the marketing team. But when we talk about data strategies, we see a lot of destinations pursuing data strategies from a destination management perspective. So looking at the social, the economic impact, looking at the traditional market data, and really a digitalization of their traditional research data. But unfortunately, as we've seen historically, research and marketing, whilst they're meant to work together, they often seem to work in parallel to each other and not really connect. And I think it's an area that the industry really needs to work on. I think this points to some of the challenges in getting a very clear picture when it comes to how our brands perform in a omni-platform, omni-channel world, where actually it's very, very difficult to trace and to establish the right attribution modeling for our activities.
[17:00] - Nick Hall: And obviously, people like Sojern are really, really key in helping destinations to get that clarity and to have some sense of understanding about the impact of their brand, and even the commercial impact of that. But nonetheless, it remains a real challenge, especially when we're looking at the kind of organic landscape. And we saw from the survey that today, destinations still place the greatest level of importance on data as part of the strategic planning. 54% of respondents said that this is where data was most important for them to look ahead and to plan ahead, whilst 38% put emphasis on reporting, and 8% put emphasis on execution. And actually this is where I think there's a really interesting opportunity, is to really grow the emphasis on the execution part. As we work with campaigns in real time, as we see how content and interactions perform, as we think about data personalization, how can we fully adapt that in a more dynamic way to see the results and to adapt the results and target the users that we want to reach, according to the behavioral response that we see? And of course, that's juxtaposed with the challenge of having to move to a first party data environment and world.
[18:15] - Nick Hall: Of course, in Europe there's GDPR, which governs how data is used, and it's very strict in the U.S. You have similar laws in California and other states. And so this is also changing how destinations think about data privacy. A consent-first approach is really key, but it does also make it more challenging. It requires new strategies; it requires that we think about how to collect data and how to really optimize the performance of those visitors that we are collecting data on. So, you know, it's somehow subtle. It sits behind the scenes, we don't really see it, but it is quite a big shift and a challenge for destinations to adapt their strategies so that they can move towards this kind of new consent-based world that we're living in when we speak about the digital environment.
[18:58] - Mark Lapidus: Seth, your thoughts?
[18:59] - Seth Orozco: There are a lot of ways I would say that we're a little behind in how we use data, but that's okay. There's a playbook here. When you look at other industries and the two main sectors where I'm seeing data being used in a better way, from the destination space, is, there's a before and an after. The before is when you are planning and when you are executing that data. I think going back to what Nick said is like, 8% put emphasis on using data in the moment, in using that execution of your plan, which is in our world. When you think about this, like, if you did a survey with all digital vendors, like Sojern, you would find that that 8% would be about 98%, because that's how we survive, is, we're using data in real time, and that's what's different about this world of data that we're all connected to now, is, it's in real time. So you need to be making decisions in real time. If you're making them, you know, you do your planning once a year. We made our plan in January, and then we're just going to let the plan run till December, and then we're going to look at the data after that.
[19:57] - Seth Orozco: You're not using real time data; you're not reacting to what's actually happening out there. So there has to be an emphasis. And we do the before we do all the planning, but then the during, we really need to evaluate. Is this working? Can we change it? Is there ability to adapt it? And again, when I go back to my theme of lean on your vendors, like this is where they bring their expertise and make sure that they are bringing that expertise and using it, because that is so important when you're executing a strategy. If you're not using this data, then what good was the strategy? And then on the post side, on the end of it, you really need to measure what happened. What actually happened? Like, not the soft metrics that we've been using since the Internet existed, in the clicks and how many website landing page views do we have? But did people actually come to your destination and make an economic impact? What came from all your planning, all of the data, all of your reacting in real time? And then at the end, how did you do? And it's not a, was it a pass or fail, it's more of where we are now, and how can we improve moving forward?
[20:55] - Seth Orozco: Because that's all marketing is, improving, moving forward, communicating with the right audience in the real time.
[21:00] - Mark Lapidus: Well, we could clearly talk about this from the next 2 hours, but I think we'll leave it there. Nick, tell us where we can find the study.
[21:06] - Nick Hall: You can head to Sojern's website. They have a report section, and you can find the State of Marketing there. Definitely go and download it, it's freely available. It's a really great study, and I think if you have any questions on it, you can reach out to either Seth or myself. We'll be really happy to reveal more insights or help to kind of interpret that, and think about what some of the strategic implications are. So I would definitely say this is a really worthy read, something that can help you to understand where you as a destination sit amongst others. And I think also just in some sense for many destinations, they've said, well, it's actually reassuring to see that others face the same challenges that we have. And in some other sense, it's quite interesting to see that different destinations are also moving in different directions when it comes to data content and their overall strategy. There's some really revealing things in there, such as right at the top of the research, where marketing sits and how it's executed. This also gives those really kind of foundational pointers in terms of how different destinations are approaching, and those can really influence decisions right to the very top of the organization, where perhaps there's a need to make a case for a different approach or a different strategy.
[22:17] - Mark Lapidus: Gentlemen, thank you again. I appreciate you taking the time.
[22:19] - Nick Hall: Thank you very much, Mark. It's a joy to speak to you again.
[22:22] - Seth Orozco: Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
[22:24] - Mark Lapidus: And give my best to Marmaduke.
[22:26] - Nick Hall: Absolutely.
[22:27] - Mark Lapidus: And that's it for Brand USA Talks Travel. I'm Mark Lapidus, thanks for listening.
[22:31] - Outro: Your feedback is welcome! Email us at [email protected] or call 202-793-6256. Brand USA Talks Travel is produced by Asher Meerovich, who also composes music and sound. Media producer, Nthanze Kariuki, with assistance from Casey D'Ambra. Engineering, Brian Watkins, Kat Pommer, and Antonio Tyler. Art by Mimi Jung. Please share this podcast with your friends in the travel industry. You may also enjoy many of our archived episodes, which you can find on your favorite podcast platform. Safe travels!


